Digital Detox: Strategies for Social Media Sanity

In this age of constant connectivity, social media has become more than just a means of expressing ourselves and connecting with others. The powerful algorithms that underpin these platforms are shaping how we communicate with others, what information we take in, and our perceptions of events (and ourselves). Its pervasive presence has brought a maze of challenges that have impacted our mental well-being.

Join us for an engaging conversation regarding the intersection of social media and stress and learn valuable insights and actionable steps to achieve a more balanced and stress-resilient relationship with social media.

With:
Julie Albright '96, PhD '01, digital sociologist; lecturer, USC Dornsife and USC Viterbi

Ian Anderson, PhD ‘24; behavioral scientist, Caltech

Moderated by:
Jonas Kaplan, neuroscientist, associate professor of psychology, co-director, Dana and David Dornsife Cognitive Neuroimaging Center at USC Dornsife

Learn more about the Dornsife Dialogues and sign up for the next live event here.

Transcript

00:00:00:17 - 00:00:27:07
Speaker 1
Welcome to the podcast version of Dornsife Dialogs, hosted by the USC Dornsife College of Letters, Arts and Sciences Conversations feature our distinguished scholars, alumni and other thought leaders discussing the fascinating issues that matter to you. You can also find video recordings of these discussions on the USC Dornsife YouTube channel. We begin this Dornsife dialog with an introduction from Dean Amber Miller.

00:00:28:11 - 00:00:55:03
Speaker 1
Welcome back to Dornsife Dialogs. This is the first episode of a New Year, a time when so many of us have taken stock of what we can do to improve our health and well-being. Made ambitious New Year's resolutions and by now forgotten all about them. But in the spirit of pretending that they are still front and center, it's interesting to note that according to the American Psychiatric Association, about a third of health resolutions this year include taking a break from social media.

00:00:55:18 - 00:01:27:08
Speaker 1
This tracks because experts are increasingly finding that while engaging with social media in moderation might offer some benefits, maintaining a healthy balance has become increasingly difficult, and this is raising serious mental health concerns. What started as a mode of connection seems to be turning into a source of isolation and stress, especially for young people. Today, we'll hear from our expert panel about the growing challenges related to habitual social media use, and they'll share some of the steps that people can take to keep social media from taking over our lives.

00:01:28:01 - 00:01:58:22
Speaker 1
Our discussion will be moderated today by a cognitive neuroscientist, Jonas Kaplan, associate professor of Research, USC's Brain and Creativity Institute and co-director of the Dornsife Cognitive Neuro Imaging Center. Professor Kaplan's work explores issues relating to consciousness, identity, empathy and social relationships. So let's get to it. I'll hand things over to Professor Kaplan, who will introduce our panelists. Thank you for joining us and happy 2020 for.

00:01:58:22 - 00:02:31:19
Speaker 2
All right. Thank you, Dean Miller. And thank you, everyone, for being here with us today. Digital Detox. I'm going to introduce our speakers first and we will start with Dr. Julie Albright. She is a digital sociologist and she specializes in digital culture and communications, teaches master's level courses on the psychology of interactive technologies and sustainable infrastructure at USC Dornsife and Determined.

00:02:32:08 - 00:02:53:15
Speaker 2
And her research is focused on the growing intersection of technology and behavioral systems. Her book, Left to Their Own Devices How Digital Natives Are Reshaping the American Dream, explores the many ways digital Natives interactions with technology has changed the relationship with people, places and jobs. And actually a film based on this book is going to be coming out later this year called The Cost of Convenience.

00:02:54:04 - 00:03:23:06
Speaker 2
Julie, thank you for being with us today. Thank you for having me. We also have today Dr. Ian Anderson. Ian is a recent graduate of Dornsife psychology program that is based here and is now a incoming postdoctoral scholar in computational neuroscience and the psychology of Social media use at Caltech. His current research is focused on how anxiety and fear impact our interactions with social technology is published.

00:03:23:06 - 00:03:35:14
Speaker 2
Research focuses on how the design of social media platforms impacts user behavior with respect to users, habits of posting and scrolling, spread of misinformation and political extremism. Hello, Ian.

00:03:36:19 - 00:03:39:10
Speaker 3
Hi, Jonas. Thanks for having me.

00:03:39:12 - 00:03:59:23
Speaker 2
So thank you, guys. Yeah, I know. Thanks for being here with us today to discuss this important topic that I think is just on everybody's minds nowadays. And we are actually going to start things out with with a poll from our audience. We're going to ask this question. We'd like everybody to respond. The poll question for you all is how many hours a day do you spend on your phone?

00:04:01:04 - 00:04:20:11
Speaker 2
So just to give us a little bit of context to see how much we're all spending on our phones. And I'm going to kick the conversation off with this question to Ian, which is how actually do social media algorithms contribute to shaping our communication patterns and the way that we consume information?

00:04:22:10 - 00:04:54:05
Speaker 3
Yeah, that's a great question. So my research shows in general that social media platforms have done their best. They've got a lot of very smart researchers there who have done their best to optimize the structure of the platforms to capture as much of our time and attention as possible, because that's directly tied to their revenue streams, which is based on how many advertisements that they can place in your feed and how many users click on those advertising ends and all sorts of things down there.

00:04:54:13 - 00:05:24:20
Speaker 3
So I'll highlight two kind of downstream effects of an attention and incentive structure that comes from this type of design. The first thing is that people form very strong habits to use these platforms, and that is by design. And the second is that often the most controversial content actually tends to rise to the top of the feeds because it's entirely based on engagement and how much attention that content can get.

00:05:25:12 - 00:05:31:05
Speaker 3
Not really necessarily what is best for their users well-being or potentially best for society at large.

00:05:34:16 - 00:06:08:15
Speaker 2
Julia Is that how you see it as well? I do. One of the things I look at, I'm a digital sociologist and I also have a couple counseling degrees. So I'm looking at the intersection of behavior and technology. I've looked at it as kind of like a double helix, where technology is now shaping behavior and behaviors, shaping technology and, you know, I just think in terms of what's going on, I'd like to zoom out and just set a context for it, which is we now have a generation growing up as digital natives.

00:06:09:01 - 00:06:39:12
Speaker 2
What that means is that they're growing up in a world where there always was an immigrant, there was an Internet as opposed to digital immigrants, which are those that are coming to the Internet later. And so right now what drove me to write my book and be interested in some of this thinking about social media impacting us is I'm on the front lines as a professor at USC, seeing the kids struggle with some of the mental health issues and things of that nature.

00:06:39:12 - 00:07:05:05
Speaker 2
And, you know, there's there's this, again, the behavior and technology of the technology side. But there's also impacts that are happening. We have a loneliness epidemic on our hands. 60% of men now under 30 are single. 69% of high school kids have never had a relationship. We have anxiety. Depression is the highest rates in 30 years in the universities.

00:07:05:10 - 00:07:44:09
Speaker 2
So this is what I call it. And part of this is coming unhooked from relationships, coming unhooked from community organizations, coming unhooked from church and other sorts of community stabilizing structures where now we have this hyper attachment because of the algorithms and because of this sort of addictive nature of it. It sucks you in as in was discussing where I call this whole constellation of behaviors coming untethered and we have an untethered generation which creates this sort of mental and physical instability that's happening now.

00:07:44:12 - 00:08:01:06
Speaker 2
You know, I think that the results coming in from our poll underscore what you've been saying here. The majority of our group has said they spend 3 to 4 hours a day on their phones, which is a considerable amount of time. It's like we don't really sleep much more than that. So this is a big chunk of our lives now.

00:08:01:21 - 00:08:29:03
Speaker 2
I'm interested in what you both think about what we can do about this. I mean, how can we manage our stress on social media? Are there effective strategies for regulating one's ones when stress and being more mindful around social media? Julie I was. I was waiting for you to jump in there. I'm sorry. You know, it's gotten it's gotten more and more challenging, as we've said.

00:08:29:11 - 00:08:59:17
Speaker 2
And you can see. Let me back up and say, when I first started studying this stuff, we had computers plugged into a wall. If you would use AOL or some other platform, you would use it. Check your email, check a chat, maybe, and then walk away from it. And that was it. Mobility or Internet connected devices like the smart phone changed the game because the Internet then went with you in your back pocket, in your purse, in your hand on the table all the time.

00:09:00:07 - 00:09:28:22
Speaker 2
And as you mentioned, sleep. We have a global sleep deprivation crisis. Teams now say they're online almost constantly. They're checking their phone up to 30 or more times a night after going to bed. So this is what's happening and what's going on is it's as Ian mentioned earlier, there are some very smart researchers where they baked in sort of addictive qualities that keep you coming back for more.

00:09:29:13 - 00:09:55:14
Speaker 2
And again, when I first started looking at this with a plug in computer on a desktop, it didn't have that same quality. But now there are things that are very powerful behavioral drivers. For example, the scroll, it's very similar to a slot machine. We know gambling is addictive, right? You want to just keep coming back because sometimes you pull that lever, you push the button, ding, ding, ding, ding, and you win.

00:09:55:14 - 00:10:17:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. Then you try it again and then you don't win. You don't win, then you win and you just keep on going. And that's called random reinforcement. And it's the most powerful behavioral driver we know to keep you coming back for more. And that's what's baked into Instagram. It's what's baked into tick tock. You just keep on seeing boring content.

00:10:17:23 - 00:10:40:00
Speaker 2
Okay? Wow. You know, that's exactly the same mechanism that's going on with gambling. So, you know, my point is it's getting harder and harder to pull yourself away. Even myself, who knows these things, you just get sucked in. One more video, one more thing to see. So it's very challenging for the average person, especially kids who are now socializing in this world.

00:10:40:09 - 00:10:46:10
Speaker 2
Pull yourself away, Ian. Give us some hope. Is there anything we can do about this?

00:10:47:12 - 00:11:19:06
Speaker 3
Yeah. So my research has shown that there are some potential areas for hope here, although we do, I would definitely agree that the way that the rewards structure works, particularly with scrolling combined with the omnipresence of social media, the notifications that come directly onto your main phone screen, all of those things form pathways that are easy to repeat over and over again.

00:11:20:04 - 00:11:39:07
Speaker 3
And once you repeat that, enough, it becomes something that you do pretty much automatically or mindlessly. As soon as you see those notifications come in, I'm sure a lot of you will probably recognize the feeling of suddenly ending up on your favorite social media app, even though you were supposed to be checking Google Maps or something like this.

00:11:39:07 - 00:12:22:11
Speaker 3
Right? I like those. And that's that's called a habit flip in my in my field of research. And that shows that you probably have a pretty strong habit to use those apps, which means that the interventions that you use are also going to need to be based on habit science, right? So if you find yourself, for example, constantly bringing your phone into bed with you, constantly bringing your phone to the restroom, like all these kind of things that I think are very common, the best things that you can do is to create so much friction that you disrupt that automatic, habitual and potentially addictive level process that has been going on.

00:12:22:11 - 00:12:56:09
Speaker 3
Those are called basically cue based interventions, right, where you literally have to physically put your phone in a different room, put it, do things to the notifications, bundle them, put them on silent, hide the social media apps in places on your phone where they aren't usually, although even those sometimes aren't extreme enough, you know, sometimes lock boxes with timers on them or things like that to actually physically remove the phone from your site and maybe even still use it as a sleep sleep alarm to wake up in the morning.

00:12:57:13 - 00:13:16:18
Speaker 3
Those kind of things are probably the most helpful once you have a strong habit and doing those sort of disruptive behaviors can start to put you back on the path to having a more value and goal oriented relationship with social media sites. Although it is very hard, it's not easy for users.

00:13:17:11 - 00:13:36:07
Speaker 2
Do you like that? Something that, you know, I just want to say that was a great description there. And those are some of the things you don't want to do. You don't want to look at the alerts, You don't want to see social media apps and things like that. I'd like to talk about some things you do want to do, which is part of that coming untethered thing.

00:13:36:12 - 00:14:13:08
Speaker 2
Our largest, longest standing social animal studies show that being woven into the social fabric bolsters physical and mental health. For example, those that are lonely have a much higher rate of things like heart disease, things like strokes and other health issues that last year the surgeon general called for attention to this loneliness epidemic we're talking about. So in addition to locking your phone away in another room, I would suggest that we need to reconnect with ourselves and our bodies, with others in relationship and with nature and the sublime.

00:14:14:04 - 00:14:36:12
Speaker 2
For example, let's set some sacred spaces aside about lunch or dinner with family or friends. The research shows that if you even have a phone on the table, it's like it's like a drug. You know, part of your attention is on that phone and you're not really paying attention to those around you. Be present for your friends, your family, your partners, Look at them, listen to them.

00:14:36:12 - 00:14:59:18
Speaker 2
That's there's nothing better that you can do than to let someone else be heard and spending time with your kids and listening to them and talking to them. For example, having a family dinner together without devices, spend more time physically walking, exercise, these kinds of things can be more effective than even pills for lifting depression and things of that nature.

00:15:00:00 - 00:15:20:19
Speaker 2
And thirdly, spend more time in nature and the sublime where you're out and and the calming aspects of nature and the things that are larger than you. The firmament of stars or the sea or the mountains help to calm and put your life and your problems in more of a perspective and and really helps to calm you down.

00:15:20:19 - 00:15:27:10
Speaker 2
So those are just a few things I would suggest. So I notice that there's a little bit.

00:15:27:10 - 00:15:30:00
Speaker 3
Of an irony here that we're having this conversation.

00:15:30:00 - 00:15:48:18
Speaker 2
Online. Does does this kind of connection that we're having now in being able to bring everybody together to listen to you guys, does that not not help in for for things like loneliness? Is this kind of social interaction not as powerful as real social interaction?

00:15:48:18 - 00:16:30:06
Speaker 3
So it depends. I think so. There is some pretty good research showing that some types of online engagement when you are actively interacting with another person, sharing things with them and at the same time as, as Julie said, not ignoring the important things in real life. And if you're getting something valuable out of listening to the, you know, a conversation like this or getting some, which I hope are audiences and, you know, or engaging with a friend or something like that, those things can actually be decent for your well-being.

00:16:30:06 - 00:16:47:02
Speaker 3
I don't know if they are necessarily comparable to a real world in-person interaction with that individual right, but they are not at least a net loss per se. So I think there is some some hope there.

00:16:47:02 - 00:17:12:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I would remind all of us we're embodied creatures and the body and tactility and physicality largely gets a raised online and, you know, it's sort of like lowered cues and lowered connection. There's nothing like that face to face moment. I speak to a lot of executives in our country about this, and they're trying to figure out how to navigate this COVID, post-COVID.

00:17:12:05 - 00:17:34:19
Speaker 2
Do we come back in the office? What what do we do? And having that team building, having that face to face being together, builds trust, builds relationships, and it's very challenging to do that over Zoom. So really, I would say the key here is to be mindful of our use of technology. We you know, I'm not I'm not trying to be Amish.

00:17:35:00 - 00:17:53:17
Speaker 2
I'm the last person that's going to say, hey, let's get out of buggy and throw our phone away. That's not my goal at all. But I think that, you know, we've raced out like racehorses out of the box with that iPhone and the excitement of connecting online and all these people and things and novel experiences and moments that we see on the Internet.

00:17:54:03 - 00:18:22:10
Speaker 2
But at this point, we can step back. It's been enough time and say, okay, is this healthy? And I would suggest just common sense to our audience today to say to yourself, why would we have this crisis of mental health and anxiety and loneliness if face to face interactions were taking the place of, you know, if online interactions were taking the place of face to face, you know, just common sense, that doesn't make any sense.

00:18:22:10 - 00:18:52:12
Speaker 2
So I would just say that remember that those things are so important, are embodied, lives are important, are face to face, interactions are important for social spaces. And for some reason, paradoxically, we're more connected than ever before, and yet we're less connected than ever before. Do we know very much yet about what the long term effects of a prolonged social media usage is over, over a long period of time?

00:18:52:12 - 00:18:57:16
Speaker 2
Or is it sort of too early for us to know this yet?

00:18:57:16 - 00:19:29:09
Speaker 3
So in terms of the actual empirical research data, there is some research already coming out, some of it just now because we're only hitting about 20 years of Facebook. I think a few weeks ago, something like that, for example. But there are there is some long term research that has shown at least effects that are related to like symptoms of depression, these other kinds of things.

00:19:30:09 - 00:20:21:18
Speaker 3
But at the same time, a lot of the research that's done on these platforms is done internally to these social media companies. They probably have a lot more information than any academic researchers or public researchers do. And I think we saw that when a lot of the studies that had been done were leaked, showing, you know, a lot of cases that Facebook and Instagram know that their websites are harming teenage girls, for example, in terms of their well-being, anxiety and exacerbate existing problems such as eating disorders and also can have negative effects on other minority groups, even if a lot of the population level data shows either very small, negative, or even even sometimes very

00:20:21:18 - 00:20:39:03
Speaker 3
small positive effects are just total wash outs. So some of the evidence is a little bit inconclusive. But I think if the social platforms were to open up their data to academics and outside researchers to study, I think we might have a lot better idea of what's going on there.

00:20:40:15 - 00:21:11:17
Speaker 2
Right? Yeah. And one of the things that's going on as well is that parents, unfortunately, are giving kids digital devices in bassinets, in cribs before kids are learning to speak. Now, they aren't able to operate digital devices, open apps open again, watching video on YouTube. Some of our infants have better digital skills than our senior citizens, and they don't have the ability to speak yet.

00:21:12:05 - 00:21:43:14
Speaker 2
That's going to rewire their brains. They're building different neural pathways. And as I've gone on speaking tours with my book, I've had people run up to me and say, We're seeing speech delays in kids because they're being spoken to less face to face. So there's always that mediated they're looking at and passively taking in entertainment on a device as opposed to being spoken to directly and seeing the mouth and the face of a parent or caretaker.

00:21:43:22 - 00:22:13:03
Speaker 2
And they're resulting in speech delays and other developmental delays. So once again, as Ian mentioned, we don't know the full story yet, but there's some hints out there, again, that we don't want to go too far onto all day digital. I'd like to talk a little bit about the social media platforms themselves and what you think their responsibility, their ethical responsibility might be in this situation.

00:22:13:03 - 00:22:28:04
Speaker 2
And now is it even possible for them to balance their desire for user engagement with some sort of responsibility for their users well-being?

00:22:28:04 - 00:23:12:11
Speaker 3
So I can start with your my research suggests that you can balance the two. In fact, one of our one of my papers that came out last year studied why people reshare misinformation and found that a lot of people do it not only knowingly but also relatively mindlessly and automatically and social media platforms. One thing we did to try to fix this was actually reward people instead of for the things that they thought would get them the most attention, reward them for the things that were accurate.

00:23:12:15 - 00:23:44:16
Speaker 3
Factually true for sharing those things instead. And when we kind of closed people off and tested this in a closed environment, we found that you can actually increase the amount of accurate and truthful content that is shared on your platform without completely tanking engagement. It's just that the current design brings a mix of both true and false sharing and almost sometimes rewards people for sharing misinformation because it's more controversial.

00:23:45:00 - 00:24:15:17
Speaker 3
Right. And trying to change that is very tough. It's a tough sell because you have to show social platforms that their main revenue driver, which is time spent on the website, isn't also going to tank when you change these systems. Right. But I do think that they have an ethical and moral responsibility to, you know, understand that their websites are causing a lot of well-documented problems.

00:24:16:18 - 00:24:54:07
Speaker 3
And my research was only on people in the United States. We know that the issues with misinformation on Facebook's own platform as well as on WhatsApp, have resulted in massacres in certain places based on false information, places outside the U.S. And that's because Facebook spends about 80% of its budget monitoring content in the US and about 20% based on its on the rest of the world, which is actually about the reverse of that is how the user base is distributed.

00:24:54:07 - 00:25:26:16
Speaker 3
So 80% of Facebook's userbase gets 20% of their work on monitoring the type of content that people are being exposed to and America, which so that is to say that we're getting the best version of Facebook and the best version of Instagram, and we still are having quite a few problems. So I think the moral and ethical responsibility to not only help people with well-being but also to prevent these other types of issues is is is really on the shoulders of these platforms.

00:25:26:16 - 00:25:29:00
Speaker 3
And it's high time that they've done something about it.

00:25:29:00 - 00:25:56:18
Speaker 2
I think. So if there is something. Oh, go ahead, Joy. I was just going to say that, you know, I don't think that Facebook or any of these platforms set off to cause a mental health crisis in our country amongst youth or set out to erode democracy. I don't think any of that was the intention at all in any way.

00:25:57:18 - 00:26:19:12
Speaker 2
However, there are unintended consequence as to all technologies. You think about a car getting in an accident, starting out. They didn't have seatbelts, right? And now we realize they oh, maybe we need something to keep us in the car. If there's an accident, let's have seatbelts be part of the story. And now that's just generally taken for granted.

00:26:19:12 - 00:26:43:04
Speaker 2
Nobody even thinks about a seatbelt. That's just part of what you do. You get in and put on your seatbelt when you're driving a car. So I think that we're at that stage of social media development again. We came running out of the box like horses in a horse race, excited with these new platforms and new possibilities. And now it's time to step back as they mature and say to ourselves, okay, is this what we want?

00:26:43:04 - 00:27:09:22
Speaker 2
Is this the direction that we want? Do we need to recalibrate what we're doing? And combined with what we're saying, one of the things I was concerned about is knowing about social psychology, as both of us do. There's a lot of false information that's being spread by bots and false persons out there that the platforms can identify and could get rid of, but that it boosts their user base right?

00:27:09:22 - 00:27:38:05
Speaker 2
Then the advertisers see more people that they could potentially reach. So I think that's where the ethical concern might come in. It is to think about that as potentially eroding democracy problem and abstracting people out, upsetting people, causing negative emotions. Side of the coin is to hold back these box that are ofttimes from other states, bad actors that are trying to divide and conquer in a very subtle way.

00:27:38:05 - 00:28:13:05
Speaker 2
It's like a cyber war going on here that we're party to. And as people that are well versed in social psychology, which means pushing groups of people in certain directions. Yeah, these these precepts are very well known, very well researched, and now they're being put at scale using social media and bots and fake persons in a sense. So this is going to be the key issue of the day for our for our coming election.

00:28:13:05 - 00:28:15:10
Speaker 3
Julie, you sort of hinted at this, but I kind of.

00:28:15:10 - 00:28:43:10
Speaker 2
Want to ask the question directly. Is this something that you think policymakers should be getting involved in? I mean, do we need laws that, you know, force the social media platforms to implement the kinds of the kinds of algorithms that that Ian was suggesting? Well, I think that we are entering now into the next phase of development of our digital world, and that is we're entering into the AI revolution.

00:28:43:22 - 00:29:13:12
Speaker 2
And I think that we were we're going to need some marker of provenance to be able to discern fake from real. I think that's going to be one of the most challenging issues that we face as people living in a digital world is we will no longer be able to discern what's real and what's not and sharing that fake information because it will be generated by air videos.

00:29:13:21 - 00:29:36:02
Speaker 2
You know, it used to be, hey, I saw it with my own eyes, you know. No, no, I saw it happen. I saw it with my own eyes. Well, there's technology now that can fool those eyes, that can fool you to think you saw something that never happened. So I think in terms of policy, we know that lawmakers lag far behind in understanding these technologies.

00:29:36:08 - 00:30:01:22
Speaker 2
If you want an example of that, look at the Zuckerberg hearings. And they said, how is it that Facebook is free? And he blazed and sat there a moment is that we run ads. We run ads because, okay, you know, they don't even understand the basics of it, much less news, more nuanced issues that are going to be driving our our country going forward.

00:30:01:22 - 00:30:38:17
Speaker 3
Yeah. Oh, sorry, I didn't hear you, John. So, yeah, I completely agree. Julie. The I think a lot of what has happened so far with attempts to have legislative action within the US have shown that there's both a lack of understanding and a lack of viability for some of the attempts that are currently being made. Although I have some hope that some more recent attempts seem to be gaining a little bit of steam.

00:30:38:17 - 00:31:11:19
Speaker 3
But we'll see. And B, however, I think the EU has shown already that some some things can be done right. So they've started to do things around data policy. Actually, California itself has been considering mandating chronic reverse chronological newsfeeds rather than ones that are completely based on the posts that get the most attention as I was talking about before.

00:31:13:08 - 00:31:48:08
Speaker 3
So yeah, I think that policymakers do have a role to play here, but I think it's important that they really understand, as you said, the nuances of what they're legislating because that will then determine sort of the effectiveness of the laws that they make, because the platforms are very smart about the ways that they design themselves and would and I assume will also be very smart about the ways they handle potential regulations as well.

00:31:48:14 - 00:32:15:05
Speaker 2
So, okay, I am going to start dipping into some of the excellent questions that our audience has been asking and the first one is from Student, and he asks, Do you have any suggestions on the right time to check social media? I think this is a really good question. A lockbox can allow you to set specific durations of allowance.

00:32:15:05 - 00:32:36:02
Speaker 2
What would the right duration be? Do we need to put that thing to a lock box for one hour, for 2 hours in a Wednesday mornings or evenings? As it doesn't matter? Any advice? Well, I would just say again, based on the sleeplessness around the world or a global sleep deprivation issue we have going on, you know, some simple things.

00:32:36:02 - 00:33:00:04
Speaker 2
One is charge that phone outside of your bedroom or outside of the side of your bed where it's subconsciously, it's always right there. You're going to check it in the middle of the night. So that's one of the things I would think about also having a wind down, period. Your brain is so stimulated by that blue light of your phone that you know, you're looking at the phone right up into bed and then you're laying there for hours.

00:33:00:04 - 00:33:15:06
Speaker 2
You know, you don't know why you're so wound up so starting that process at least an hour before bedtime, to do a wind down time where you don't have a device and immediately get into bed. I think it's helpful.

00:33:15:06 - 00:33:38:15
Speaker 3
Yeah, I definitely agree about the before bed saying that as well as like first thing when you wake up, if you're sitting in bed, it's also can be pretty stressful that suddenly you just get a flood of notifications. So allow yourself a little warm up into the day, maybe check it after you've had your coffee rather than before these kind of things.

00:33:39:06 - 00:34:04:21
Speaker 3
And also, I think to rip off of what Julia was saying earlier, try not to check it when you're out socializing with friends in the real world or when you're supposed to be doing other things in person. But I think other times when you're by yourself and you're not winding down or warming up for the day, sure, why not?

00:34:04:21 - 00:34:33:22
Speaker 2
So there's another a related question from one of our audience members who says, How do we encourage digital breaks among friends? I can hardly have a dinner with those friends without their phones being on the table or chat constantly. Do you have any advice for how to how to interact with this situation socially? That's so true. I had lunch with a friend of mine and he was he likes to talk a lot and he's talking and talking and then it's my turn to say something and he would immediately pick up the phone and scrolling.

00:34:33:22 - 00:34:53:09
Speaker 2
And then when he was talking, then he was talking to me. And then when I talked, he would pick up the phone literally every time. And I did not feel heard in that. It's like, do you want to hear this or not? You know, it gives you a bad feeling. And so I totally relate to what this person saying here and what I would say is set the expectations ahead of time.

00:34:53:09 - 00:35:11:20
Speaker 2
I remember we had a Thanksgiving once. We had a basket. It's like, okay, everybody, you know, put your phone in the basket ahead of time. And then we took them away. So setting the expectation ahead of time. Okay, guys, let's get together and reconnect and and let's make sure our phones are all in our bags or in our pockets and not be checking them during the lunch set.

00:35:11:20 - 00:35:31:14
Speaker 2
The expectation before you get there, I think will help to deal with that because it literally is an addictive quality. And you want another hit of that Doberman at the table. And so it's very challenging. But if you all agree and that's what you're going to do, let's just set it aside for the next hour and a half and have lunch together and reconnect.

00:35:31:18 - 00:35:40:13
Speaker 2
I think it'll be easier than trying to get, Hey, don't use that phone when you're already at the table.

00:35:40:13 - 00:36:08:15
Speaker 3
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really good strategy, especially encouraging like advanced communication among the friend group and being on board like, you know, hey, we're going to put our phones away for this. We're going to we're going to interact and engage with each other face to face. You know, if if someone does have something to show somebody else, like a photo or something, maybe you can take the phone out, but probably try to put it back away as soon as you can after that interaction, Right?

00:36:10:13 - 00:36:20:22
Speaker 2
Yeah. Then you're checking messages and then those alerts are coming in. It's exactly next thing you know, you're checking your email. It's like, No, no.

00:36:20:22 - 00:36:23:12
Speaker 3
Got to be very careful.

00:36:24:07 - 00:36:27:12
Speaker 2
Here's here's a question that is resonating with me as a parent.

00:36:27:13 - 00:36:28:18
Speaker 3
And I think a lot of us.

00:36:29:05 - 00:36:54:00
Speaker 2
Struggle with this question. Do you have do you have any advice for parents in monitoring their children's online activity from elementary to high school? How do we deal with this as parents? Well, that's very challenging. You know, even recently, there are children's programing, for example, on YouTube. You know, you might see some Peppa Pig videos or things like that.

00:36:54:18 - 00:37:18:10
Speaker 2
And parents can And so I mentioned earlier hand their kid a device and think they're watching Peppa Pig But in reality the Peppa Pig videos and I'm just giving this as one example have been hijacked and people are creating this frightening horrifying content that the kids are watching. That's like, it's not Peppa Pig at all. It's disguised as that.

00:37:18:16 - 00:37:40:21
Speaker 2
And there's all these untoward things going on. So, you know, understanding what your kid is watching. But again, also limiting that time and also for the parent, I mean, imagine we just talked about the friend groups and friends not feeling heard or friends not feeling connected to one another. Imagine if you're a kid and you want attention from your parent and they're on their phone scrolling for hours.

00:37:40:23 - 00:38:00:23
Speaker 2
You know, you're sitting there and you need that, you know, to feel good about yourself, to develop your sense of identity. Pooley calls this the looking glass self. We develop our sense of self through our interactions with others and if that looking glass. So if your parents looking at a phone, what unconscious message are you sending to your child?

00:38:01:09 - 00:38:20:23
Speaker 2
No. Well, you're not any big deal. You're not important, you know, and they're internalizing these messages. So just remember, it goes both sides. It's what the kids are doing. That's also what the parents are doing and the attention or lack thereof in that relationship between parent and child. We have to be mindful of that as well.

00:38:20:23 - 00:38:53:21
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think absolutely kind of embodying that sort of mindful relationship with technology that you want your child to have is incredibly important because kids are super sensitive to the role models and what the people around them do right. I think also, you know, especially as kids get into the high school age, you don't want to necessarily make them feel like they need to be hiding what they're doing online because that can only exacerbate issues.

00:38:53:21 - 00:39:20:06
Speaker 3
Right? You want to have honest conversations with them about the things that they're looking at, even getting their thoughts about the things that they're seeing, trying to understand and make sure that they are kind of seeing it in a holistic way and not consuming content or going down all the strange possible rabbit holes that the Internet can offer, right?

00:39:21:10 - 00:39:48:13
Speaker 3
So you want to really make sure that your kids understand that the Internet is a place with a lot of great things and a lot of really horrible things as well, and that both all of those things are there and how to understand them and how to deal with them when they see things that they are confused by or don't understand or these kind of things.

00:39:48:13 - 00:39:56:12
Speaker 3
You want to keep that conversation open always, I think. And also alongside embodying that mindful behavior that we talked.

00:39:56:12 - 00:39:57:01
Speaker 2
About before.

00:39:59:07 - 00:40:01:14
Speaker 3
That that Peppa Pig example.

00:40:01:21 - 00:40:02:18
Speaker 2
Is terrifying.

00:40:03:11 - 00:40:06:14
Speaker 3
It is, Yeah. I'd like to talk about.

00:40:06:19 - 00:40:07:21
Speaker 2
Misinformation.

00:40:07:22 - 00:40:09:08
Speaker 3
On the Internet in general a little.

00:40:09:08 - 00:40:10:18
Speaker 2
Bit more in you.

00:40:10:18 - 00:40:11:07
Speaker 3
Mentioned.

00:40:11:22 - 00:40:17:12
Speaker 2
A study that you had done, and we have a question from one of our audience members who asks how do we.

00:40:17:15 - 00:40:18:22
Speaker 3
Test and trust to the.

00:40:18:22 - 00:40:23:17
Speaker 2
Information that we see on social media and how do we not feel overwhelmed by all the news?

00:40:25:03 - 00:40:57:05
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think it's really important to develop your own and to call back the other question also for your kids, their information literacy, right? So understanding, you know, what the source of the information is, who is saying this? What are their motivations for saying this? Is this video something that is, you know, real? Right. Because is it from where the where the Post says it's from?

00:40:58:12 - 00:41:26:05
Speaker 3
Right. Because, for example, the other day there were a ton of air generated videos floating around of Taylor Swift. So many that Twitter had to basically block searches for Taylor Swift's name on the site. And these kind of things happen to celebrities, but it's also going to start happening more and more broadly and more often. And also there will be footage that's taken completely out of context, right.

00:41:26:06 - 00:41:53:01
Speaker 3
Totally decontextualized of things and put in a new context in a post. Right. So using reverse image search with Google, trying to figure out exactly where the source came from, the source of the information is coming from. And if you can't figure out what that sources and whether or not that source is trustworthy, then you don't know whether that's not true.

00:41:53:09 - 00:42:15:11
Speaker 3
And I think it's also good to encourage people that to say, you know, this isn't like this isn't 100% true or 100% false. Right. It's also okay to say, I don't know if this is 100% true or like this is true, but, you know, X, Y, and Z, and this is the context that I can couch it in.

00:42:15:19 - 00:42:43:08
Speaker 3
Right? So I think it's very important to do this, but also to understand that, you know, when you are scrolling through tons and tons of content, you might not have the thought or have the time to go deep and search for those kind of things. And in addition, there's a lot of good research on misinformation showing that even just being exposed to this kind of stuff impacts all your future judgments about the topic ever so suddenly.

00:42:44:16 - 00:43:15:01
Speaker 3
So I think a lot of it is going to be on the platforms themselves to try to be proactive about this kind of stuff. But for users, I think trying to increase our information literacy as much as possible is going to be really crucial, especially because I think we've already seen the ways in which AI and working together with BOT firms which kind of have already existed, can supercharge the problem of misinformation.

00:43:15:10 - 00:43:25:16
Speaker 3
So I think it's it's a time to be very cautious about things that we see online.

00:43:25:16 - 00:43:46:20
Speaker 2
Do anything to add about misinformation. Well, I just remember one of my favorite writers, Ray Bradbury, which some of our audience may know is a science fiction writer. And he used to say about the news, you know, your questioner asked about, you know, how do we not feel overwhelmed by all the news? All the bad news is what you're saying.

00:43:46:23 - 00:44:16:17
Speaker 2
We're not overwhelmed by good news. Right? And he used to say, if you feel bad, turn off your television. And, you know, he's kind of like, you know, presaging where we're at now, turn off your social media, you know, and get away from it. Go for a lot, see some friends, be with your family, go to the gym, you know, do some alternative behavior as opposed to getting in as being mentioned, those rabbit holes just getting sucked into bad news because, you know, it's bad for your spirit in the long run.

00:44:16:17 - 00:44:47:01
Speaker 2
We need a balancing point as opposed to getting drowned by bad news. So find the positive habits to counteract the bad news out there. Physical physicality, do yoga, do exercise, be with friends, be with loved ones, you know, read positive things. And it's not just being a Pollyanna. It's you need to reinforce yourself against the onslaught of bad news that's coming at us every day.

00:44:47:01 - 00:44:54:20
Speaker 2
There's a very specific question from from Berkeley who asks? They say that they coach students with ADHD.

00:44:55:07 - 00:44:56:22
Speaker 3
And are wondering if.

00:44:56:22 - 00:45:23:05
Speaker 2
Being on the phone is exacerbating their ADHD or do either of you know of any specific research about ADHD? The social media use, I'm sure, is going to speak to that, but I would just say that there are that's part of the as we got into a little bit earlier, you know, ongoing. Let's see what happens with kids that are on phones almost constantly.

00:45:23:14 - 00:45:53:05
Speaker 2
And the point of stimulation and needing constant stimulation and, you know, things. It's going to create an environment where complex problems require thought and time and in-depth focus. And all of this that we're talking about is the antithesis that. So it's it's kind of like, you know, how can you be with yourself? I'm bored. That issue with the ADHD.

00:45:53:14 - 00:46:20:22
Speaker 2
I need need level of stimulation. And I think your brain gets used to that level of constant stimulation. That's why I'm suggesting a rebalancing with tech and with our analog lives so that, you know, you give your brain a rest. We're overstimulated, we're exhausting ourselves in this environment. So I think that's an important factor, especially for kids.

00:46:20:22 - 00:46:54:18
Speaker 3
Right. And I think it is very much kind of this omnipresence of the smartphones and computers as well. Right. You are constantly feeling pulled in all of these different directions. There's a lot of attention grabbing things on both of those things. But in both of those places, I haven't seen as much research on whether or not specifically it exacerbates ADHD symptoms.

00:46:55:09 - 00:47:33:22
Speaker 3
But I do know that in general, people with neurological disorders or who are not neurotypical can have greater struggles controlling their social media use. Right? Because, you know, and there are all sorts of theories that I can really dig into about why that is. But I think the best thing that you can try to do is to make sure that, you know, it's not a source of constant distraction and that is really difficult.

00:47:33:22 - 00:48:06:15
Speaker 3
You have to be very careful about how you use your phone. And I think with young people and students who have these kind of have these issues, it's even tougher for them. So I think being mindful of that and also trying to offer them strategies to help combat that, that constant attention and time suck. That is the mobile phone and also the computer to a degree.

00:48:06:15 - 00:48:06:22
Speaker 3
Right.

00:48:08:03 - 00:48:33:03
Speaker 2
I think I'd like to add something here, which is, aside from being a digital sociologist, I also have a master's and a Ph.D. in counseling, and that's kind of what heightened my interest in some of this in the beginning, putting all my counseling hat in. And I see a lot of the questions are concerning kids and teens. They're sort of over attachment, hyper attachment, as I call it, to social media and to their devices.

00:48:34:13 - 00:49:02:14
Speaker 2
One thing we know about, let's say, addiction or connection to these things, you know, whether it's smoking, whether somebody mentioned the connection to big tobacco, you can't just stop doing something. And this is an important point to make. You can't just stop doing something. You have to do something else. So don't just say to your kid, Oh, stop using your phone and that's it.

00:49:02:23 - 00:49:27:12
Speaker 2
You have to find a different behavior that is also rewarding, interesting, engaging, etc. to take the place of the negative behavior you're trying to stop doing. Don't just stop smoking. Chew the gum. Right. So what's the gum in this situation? Something that is delightful. Something interesting. Okay, let's all go for a walk or hey, let's play a game, or let's do whatever X, Y, Z.

00:49:27:21 - 00:49:47:09
Speaker 2
But it has to take the place of you can't simply stop doing a behavior. You must replace it with a different behavior that's more positive, that's more helpful, you know, and things like that. So think about that. Parents, what can you replace the behavior with? Not just cut off the behavior that's not going to work?

00:49:48:04 - 00:50:14:04
Speaker 3
Absolutely. And that's actually a trouble that a lot of the scientific study has run into where they've tried to get people to, you know, detox on social media by using like saying, okay, you just stop using social media. And then during the study period, people start using a different app, right? Or they hit or they spend just as much time on a different like a gaming app or something like that.

00:50:14:11 - 00:50:38:07
Speaker 3
And then they don't see the positive effects of the detox because they spend all their time gaming instead of on social media. So actually one of the successful studies had, interestingly, they actually supplanted it with another app, right? So they actually got people to like when they felt the need to use social media. They had them go on Duolingo, which is a language learning app.

00:50:38:17 - 00:51:03:07
Speaker 3
And that actually that actually helped some people control their social media habits a little bit. But also, I think other that are not involving the phone. This is an adult study, right. So in particular with kids and also for for adults, I think you feel like they're spending much time on the phone in general, not just social media supplanting that activity with a new one.

00:51:03:07 - 00:51:07:08
Speaker 3
That's also rewarding is going to be a really good way to help controlling exactly.

00:51:07:08 - 00:51:37:18
Speaker 2
Is that's what said. What do you guys feel about minimum age limits for for social media? Should there be a a a minimum age for people to use social media? And what should that age being 12, 16? Yeah, well, as I mentioned before, if you go on YouTube and search Baby with you, last time I did it, I got over 60,000 hits.

00:51:38:07 - 00:52:04:22
Speaker 2
People are filming their little baby again. They can't speak yet using these devices, opening apps, running. So it's I believe, viable. So the surgeon general has come out and said and again, they're still we're still feeling our way around this new world. This is a brave new world. And we don't have all the answers yet. We're learning, but we're also seeing some of the unintended consequences and trying to figure out how to deal with them.

00:52:05:05 - 00:52:28:23
Speaker 2
So the surgeon general's suggesting least like to I think it is it might have been even older now to not give a device to a little baby like that because of some of the impacts on their development. And our one of our audience members is suggesting maybe minimum age of 16. Ostensibly, that's what it is. But we know that younger kids are making these accounts.

00:52:29:08 - 00:53:03:07
Speaker 2
They're maybe hearing some of these unintended consequences, unintended negative impacts on teens, particularly girls and body image issues. Maybe it's it's, you know, sitting down with your teen and saying, hey, I know this is everyone's on there and this and that, but, you know, I don't want you to be, you know, and explaining what that what the reasoning is for a little bit older age and holding out and don't be afraid to be a parent here because you know, this can be very detrimental to particularly teens as we're seeing.

00:53:03:07 - 00:53:26:12
Speaker 3
Yeah. And I think it's very it's tough to say precisely what age would wouldn't be recommended because the research just isn't quite there yet. Right. I don't know that we know very well. But at the same time, like it's the sites have always had policies around this, Right. So if they ask you, you know, how old are you?

00:53:26:12 - 00:54:03:04
Speaker 3
And then as a teenager, you know, I, I did grow up with social media sites and then you lie about your age and then you're on the site when you're young, and that is basically all there is. So there's no you know, there's absolutely no verification. Right, for these kind of things. And I know that also this was an interesting thing that I think they may have walked this back, but I know that Instagram had actually tried to release like a version of Instagram for younger people that was like kind of a safer sandbox, smaller version of the wider site.

00:54:03:04 - 00:54:30:07
Speaker 3
But yeah, I think it's there are a number of ways to potentially kind of control and help the young people try to have healthier relationships with social media. But it is it's very tough to pick when somebody is ready to be online. And in a lot of ways, you know, being surrounded by friends who are probably already going to be getting on it makes it even tougher.

00:54:30:07 - 00:54:55:06
Speaker 3
Right. So saying, you know, it's harder to tell your kid, know when their entire class is on it, and then they feel like a social class outcast because they can't be on their right. So I think it's it's tough to say that there should be like a legally enforceable age, not only because of practical concerns and logistical ones about people lying about their age because they're trying They've tried to do that.

00:54:56:00 - 00:55:11:23
Speaker 3
You know, we'd have to probably require people to upload IDs. And then there's all sorts of fun privacy concerns wrapped into that, too. So, yeah, it's a that's a really tough question. And I don't know that I have a great answer for a specific age. Yes. So we have just.

00:55:11:23 - 00:55:14:22
Speaker 2
A few minutes left. And what I'd like to do is just give.

00:55:14:22 - 00:55:15:18
Speaker 3
Each of you a.

00:55:15:18 - 00:55:22:18
Speaker 2
Chance to say some final words because anything you haven't said yet, if nothing comes to mind, I'm curious what you think about the.

00:55:22:18 - 00:55:23:11
Speaker 3
Future of.

00:55:23:11 - 00:55:26:16
Speaker 2
Social media and where all of this is is going. Is it going to get.

00:55:27:00 - 00:55:27:20
Speaker 3
Better or worse?

00:55:27:20 - 00:55:51:22
Speaker 2
But let's start with Julie concluding thoughts. There's so much to be said. We can have this conversation all day and thank you for such an engaging conversation. I hope this is helpful to the parents and just to all of us out there where we're navigating a new world and, you know, be mindful. I think that's really the key of your use of technology.

00:55:51:22 - 00:56:18:17
Speaker 2
Try to be more mindful and not be online 24 hours a day and pull your eyeballs away and spend that time out in nature, spend that time with each other, spend that time in physical activities. These are all as I said, you can't just stop. Do something you have to replace. And all these things that I'm mentioning are helpful health supporting things that have been done away with as.

00:56:18:17 - 00:56:37:14
Speaker 2
We're spending more and more hours on our phones, so we need to bring them back into the picture and eat healthy and then be physical, be with each other and be with nature. And I think those things will help you to lead a healthier, happier life.

00:56:37:14 - 00:57:09:23
Speaker 3
And yeah, I would absolutely second that and also say to people that it's important not to get to frustrate it with yourself or with your kids or friends for having really strong social media habits. Right. These apps are designed to build those in the first place. So people struggling to be mindful is not necessarily their own fault and in many cases.

00:57:10:06 - 00:57:37:21
Speaker 3
So I think it's good to remind everyone of that and also to remember that there are ways to handle these things and to be mindful about them. Things that we've reviewed here. I think throughout the conversation I've spoken to that. And so these are things that you can do yourself to take back some control while we await either regulation or some changes from the social media companies themselves.

00:57:37:21 - 00:57:41:12
Speaker 3
That might also help us help ourselves, right?

00:57:43:02 - 00:57:46:10
Speaker 2
That may be a long way. I think we've got a long way.

00:57:46:22 - 00:57:50:03
Speaker 3
I agree. Well, I want to thank both of you.

00:57:50:14 - 00:58:07:04
Speaker 2
And Julie for lending us your expertise on this topic that everyone has to struggle with nowadays. And I want to thank the audience for for joining us today. And and that's it. Thank you very much. And I hope everybody takes a break from their phone later on today. Thank you so much for having me.

00:58:07:23 - 00:58:08:11
Speaker 3
Thank you.

00:58:09:14 - 00:58:22:03
Speaker 1
We hope you enjoyed this episode of the Dornsife Dialogs podcast. Please leave us a rating and a review wherever you listen. Thank you for your support and fight on.